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Comments

Lazlo Bonin
Feb 25 2013 05:35 PM
Congratulations on the release!
I’ll see if I can put aside some things to participate in the game competition.
Time to rationalize my budget for the purchase. :)

ESP
Feb 25 2013 05:39 PM
WOW!!! $499 + $499 + $499, wonder if my Boss will cover this?

NightQuest
Feb 25 2013 05:56 PM
That’s.. quite the price hike. Guess I’ll be saving for longer than I expected since that only goes till April 1st.

Contratulations on release.

Furbolg
Feb 25 2013 07:01 PM
Wow, to be honest at first i just read 999$ (nine hundred ninty nine) but then i saw the 50% rabate for the community.

Thats a pretty high price, so i hope to see some nice additions in future Posted Image

wh1sp3r
Feb 25 2013 07:01 PM
lol, no way, bye LE, lol

gordonramp
Feb 25 2013 07:02 PM
Does the price include future improvements like a Terrain Editor?

ParaToxic
Feb 25 2013 07:13 PM
Wow congrats. for the release !
It would be good when the rabate for the community goes longer, caus’ I don’t think that everybody can pay so much money for that ( It worth but still we need time ;) ) so they won’t but it for 999$ later -> Well about 3k for all packages

Andy Gilbert
Feb 25 2013 07:19 PM
Its good how the mobile addons are seperate but I guess the bit i dont understand is $999 for Leadwerks 3 base product for Windows and Mac despite having graphically less features than LE2 which was took out for mobile. So for people like me who arnt at the moment interested in mobile and who own LE2, is it worth $499 (or $999??) i cant see how….So for me its LE2 for now.

DarthRaff
Feb 25 2013 07:42 PM
No shadows, no terrain, 999$, not for me at this moment, but congratulations for the release

gamecreator
Feb 25 2013 07:42 PM
A huge CONGRATULATIONS! on the release. I know you’ve worked very hard on this with many major challenges conquered. It is an incredible achievement.

I would strongly suggest making clear what does and doesn’t come with the engine (especially with respect to LE2) and what will come, when and for how much. I know a lot of this is scattered around the site but it really should come from you in a features list page or blog. I image at least some of this is to come.

If you’d like me to start a thread with a list of questions that the community can compile, I’d be happy to do so.

BLaBZ
Feb 25 2013 07:50 PM
Yikes, I didn’t expect that price but it seems Leadwerks is competing on the same ground as Unity and Shiva now.

So when a developer has to make a choice it’s going to come down to Unity vs Shiva vs Leadwerks and Leadwerks is going to need reasons why it’s better than it’s competition.

Just some thoughts for marketing Josh,

BLaBZ
Feb 25 2013 07:51 PM
And especially Congrats!

Aggror
Feb 25 2013 08:43 PM
Congratulations Josh. It is admirable to see what you were able to create in such short time notice.

josk
Feb 25 2013 08:47 PM
Yeah Congrats, good to see you get this out of the door, well in a few days anyway.
Hope all the hard work reaps rewards.

NarkLord
Feb 25 2013 09:13 PM
Congratulations Josh! Before people implode I think everyone needs to take a cold shower. As a whole product LE3 has been carefully considered, including price and features and customers. Josh could release the engine for a lower price but what for? He doesn’t exist just to make a cheap engine for us to use. It’s a business and a serious product. There are plenty of free alternatives for hobbiest. When it comes to advantages over competition like unity/ Shiva he has been clear native code, performance, pipeline, us ability. Did I say native code?
However I think more info on the upgrade path is required / made visible.

Once again congrats.

knocks
Feb 25 2013 09:16 PM
Native code might sway me to think otherwise if developing for 486’s

Josh Klint
Feb 25 2013 09:20 PM
I think our biggest advantages are an API design that can be developed with native code, built-in level design tools, and our Lua integration with a built-in script editor and debugger, and gameplay flowgraphs.

We’ll have a product roadmap for future development up this week so you can see what we’re planning on next.

ZeroByte
Feb 25 2013 09:48 PM
Congratulations Josh!

Roland
Feb 25 2013 10:15 PM
Congratulations to the release.
Now the real hard works starts :)

carlb
Feb 25 2013 10:22 PM
Congratulation on the release (hope you don’t have any more ati graphic problem with this now days lol)

<HR>

#1
Josh Klint
27 February 2013 - 02:50 PM

Staff
5,494 posts

Hey, I just got back from SF. It was pretty interesting because last time I was at the GDC, everything I had was based on Blitz. At the time, I just saw the problem as “Blitz doesn’t compile for XBox” but of course it’s more complex than that. Now that we have our C++ code base it’s going to be pretty exciting to see what happens there.

Obviously I need to rethink our upgrade pricing. The reason I am doing a soft launch within the community is because it lets gives us a chance to work out any issues before going public. I was thinking more about technical stuff, but I guess this falls under the same umbrella.

It was difficult to judge what to set it at, because I think the new engine is really good, and I want to scale things up as quickly as possible. I think we can all agree Leadwerks needs to grow to be able to do the things we want. However, the transition to a more serious engine needs to be smooth enough so that everyone who wants to upgrade can. A lot of people just do this as a hobby, which is fine. I think we can figure out a way that no one gets left out.

The original upgrade window I gave was influenced by the date of the GDC, which is a month early this year for some reason. It’s the big industry event, so I want to have the public launch then. Of course I planned on having the engine done well before that, but I found the front-end (user interface) stuff to take a lot more time than just making a back-end that works (engine API). So we can extend that.

Let’s get a demo out for Windows, and then you guys can play with it yourselves and see what the new engine is like. Until then it’s all just speculation based on my verbal description. Chris was supposed to finish up a few small things while I was gone, so I will check on that when I get into work. We should be able to put the demo out tomorrow morning, and we’ll just hold off on the purchases for now.

The discussions here have been pretty reasonable for the most part, and I’ve talked to a number of you and have a pretty good idea of what people think is a fair range. I’m not going to make a spur-of-the-moment decision, but I’ll look at what I want our final price to be for the public, what our immediate expenses are, and what people think is reasonable.

Regarding future development, I think it’s too soon to start planning version 3.1 until people start using the new engine and I see how they handle it. I will however commit to adding terrain to version 3.0 following release. I don’t have an estimate on when that will be, and stability and compatibility take precedence over new features, but it won’t cost anything extra. The request I hear on terrain more than anything else is to increase the 4 texture limit. There are technical reasons for that constraint, but there are a few ways around it and I’ll just have to play around with it and see what works best. The reason that never happened in Leadwerks 2 is because it requires a lot more code to make optimal; you can’t just throw 16 textures at the pixel shader and get the same performance.

Don’t worry too much about this week, we’ve been through worse. Posted Image

#2
Xaron
27 February 2013 - 02:54 PM

Developer
83 posts

Great Josh! :) Nice to see you back. And thanks for your words!
Intel Core i5-760 4×2.8GHz, 4GB Ram, NVidia GTX 460 1GB, Windows 7 64 Bit
CodeKnitters - my small game company
Silent Depth

#3
Pixel Perfect
27 February 2013 - 02:57 PM

Developer
2,022 posts

Reassuring words Josh, I believe that should calm the community somewhat.
Intel Core i5 2.66 GHz, Asus P7P55D, 8Gb DDR3 RAM, GTX460 1Gb DDR5, Windows 7 (x64), LE Editor, GMax, 3DWS, UU3D Pro, Texture Maker Pro, Shader Map Pro. Development language: C/C++

#4
cassius
27 February 2013 - 03:34 PM

Developer
1,421 posts

Thanks Josh.
So its c++ or lua and nothing else? Is that correct?
amd 4.2ghz cpu / geforce 660 ti 2gb

#5
gamecreator
27 February 2013 - 03:48 PM

Developer
540 posts

Much appreciated.

The only other thing I can add is that much of the community felt that LE3 should at least have matching graphics capabilities to LE2 (lighting and shadows). While that might take some time to roll out, I would highly suggest considering that it be part of either the 3.0 or 3.1 release as part of the engine (no extra cost).

#6
Josh Klint
27 February 2013 - 04:07 PM

Staff
5,494 posts

View Postgamecreator, on 27 February 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:
Much appreciated.

The only other thing I can add is that much of the community felt that LE3 should at least have matching graphics capabilities to LE2 (lighting and shadows). While that might take some time to roll out, I would highly suggest considering that it be part of either the 3.0 or 3.1 release as part of the engine (no extra cost).
That cannot be done at the price you would like. It’s another big block of research and development, and I just finished a two year cycle.

Quote
So its c++ or lua and nothing else? Is that correct?
That’s what I can officially support and document right now. I will post my BlitzMax binding code, but it’s not compliant with the API and docs.

#7
wh1sp3r
27 February 2013 - 04:08 PM

Developer
430 posts

I would like to react on admin’s reply on offtopic:

Posted Imagewh1sp3r, on 27 February 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

now, the question is Posted Image will be a GL4 renderer added without any fee ?

Admin’s answer:
No. That’s completely infeasible. Implementation will be a huge amount of research and development.

So it means .. we have to pay additional money for that. Ok, That i wanted to know. Thank you.
-= Phenom II X4 965 3.4Ghz - ATI HD5870 - 6 GB DDR3 RAM - Windows 8 Pro 64x=-
Website: http://www.flamewarestudios.com

#8
Josh Klint
27 February 2013 - 04:12 PM

Staff
5,494 posts

Yeah, that’s what I meant. Our business model is paid upgrades every 9-15 months or so.

#9
ESP
27 February 2013 - 04:14 PM

Developer
255 posts

So does that mean 9-15 months to get LE3 to have the capabilities of LE2?
Programmer (Learning C++ and Lua ) Intel Quad core, NVIDIA GeForce GT 220, Windows 7 Pro, Galaxy Tab 2 7.0, LE2,LE3,3DWS

#10
Pixel Perfect
27 February 2013 - 04:18 PM

Developer
2,022 posts

Exactly, that’s my question too. As much as I’d like some of the pipeline and editor benefits we are realistically saying to get to the same graphics level as LE2 on Windows will take two chargeable upgrades and a minimum of 9 -15 months wait?
Intel Core i5 2.66 GHz, Asus P7P55D, 8Gb DDR3 RAM, GTX460 1Gb DDR5, Windows 7 (x64), LE Editor, GMax, 3DWS, UU3D Pro, Texture Maker Pro, Shader Map Pro. Development language: C/C++

#11
gamecreator
27 February 2013 - 04:25 PM

Developer
540 posts

View PostJosh Klint, on 27 February 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:
That cannot be done at the price you would like. It’s another big block of research and development, and I just finished a two year cycle.
I could have sworn you said somewhere (must have been on the blog) that graphics is the easy part of this and that you already know how to do it well. It seems I misremember or maybe you were just talking about the PC.

#12
Lazlo Bonin
27 February 2013 - 04:31 PM

Developer
921 posts

View PostESP, on 27 February 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:
So does that mean 9-15 months to get LE3 to have the capabilities of LE2?

^this.

#13
wh1sp3r
27 February 2013 - 04:33 PM

Developer
430 posts

that’s what i really don’t like …. we have no idea, when we have to pay and for what and how much. Small update, and pay !! or no support. it reminds me small upgrade from 2.2 to 2.3 or how’s the version. We really don’t know when they can suprises us with price.

I really hate these marketing models where you have to pay for bugfixes.
-= Phenom II X4 965 3.4Ghz - ATI HD5870 - 6 GB DDR3 RAM - Windows 8 Pro 64x=-
Website: http://www.flamewarestudios.com

#14
cassius
27 February 2013 - 04:44 PM

Developer
1,421 posts

Well we have never paid for bug fixes yet. Josh says the addition of terrain will be free.
amd 4.2ghz cpu / geforce 660 ti 2gb

#15
Marcus
27 February 2013 - 04:52 PM

Developer
161 posts

Just a suggestion on pricing Josh:

Existing Users: $199 upgrade — $499 iOS/Android — $199 future updates (one year to upgrade)
New Users — : $499 purchase - $499 iOS/Android — $199 future updates

As LE3 has close to the number of features as Unity, scale the price up. I really don’t think you are going to have very many takers at your current price. In fact, based on what I’ve seen over the past couple of days, you will lose a lot of customers. You won’t have a community much longer as well.

#16
Furbolg
27 February 2013 - 04:54 PM

Developer
204 posts

Guys we should wait till Josh get the 3.0 version ready for launch.

As you can see here, it is possible to talk with Josh (if its civil and not flaming).
We got Josh to think about the price, so chances we are getting Leadwerks 3D cheaper are given. Josh officially promised to add free terrain (in the meantime anyone could use Meshterrain and Splattershader, this community will share this really fast i guess).

Im also not happy with the actual situation (Unity: free, UDK Source Licensee (for hobby/indie) 99$ etc… you know the competetors) but i think we have to give Josh a chance to react.

Later on we can still left but i hope we dont reach this point.

#17
Wchris
27 February 2013 - 05:26 PM

Developer
226 posts

And allow downloadable versions please. I don’t want a boxed version.
Customs will want me to pay vat on oversee shipped boxed versions. + custom fees.
I don’t have to pay vat on downloaded versions, because they don’t known I exists at all.
Thanks
Edit: I’m serious, I will NOT buy a boxed version.

[joke]
Edit: another solution is to slice the boxed version into packets of value < 45€. And send me plenty of little packets ;) because our crazy lawmaker doesn’t require vat when the price is < 45€. But I guess you don’t want to ? LOL
[/joke]
Windows 7 home - 32 bits
Intel Quad Q6600 - nVidia GTX 460 1GB - 2 GB RAM

#18
Pixel Perfect
27 February 2013 - 06:32 PM

Developer
2,022 posts

I just think its important that people know exactly what they are getting into right from the start so they can make the initial purchase without any misconceptions

This requires as a bare minimum:

Revised initial purchase costs
A definite roadmap of development with time scales
A reasonable indication of the expected cost of each of these upgrades

There is no immediate requirement but it should be made available before asking people to purchase the engine. If you are asking people to make a not insubstantial investment both financially and time wise then this is essential so people can plan their finances and development.

The release of a trial/demo version for people to try is a good initial move and I welcome that.
Intel Core i5 2.66 GHz, Asus P7P55D, 8Gb DDR3 RAM, GTX460 1Gb DDR5, Windows 7 (x64), LE Editor, GMax, 3DWS, UU3D Pro, Texture Maker Pro, Shader Map Pro. Development language: C/C++

#19
EdzUp(GD)
27 February 2013 - 07:07 PM

Developer
5 posts

I think another major thing people will want to know is what are the limitations of the base LE3 engine, LE2.5 can do LOADS of different things apart from the cross platform or low end hardware side. If LE3 cannot do half of LE2.5 then this will be seen as a half release or at worst beta.

#20
gordonramp
27 February 2013 - 07:15 PM

Developer
375 posts

View PostPixel Perfect, on 27 February 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:
I just think its important that people know exactly what they are getting into right from the start so they can make the initial purchase without any misconceptions

This requires as a bare minimum:

Revised initial purchase costs
A definite roadmap of development with time scales
A reasonable indication of the expected cost of each of these upgrades

There is no immediate requirement but it should be made available before asking people to purchase the engine. If you are asking people to make a not insubstantial investment both financially and time wise then this is essential so people can plan their finances and development.

The release of a trial/demo version for people to try is a good initial move and I welcome that.

I agree with this completely.
Also, Josh has indicated that development of lights and shadows would be too time consuming for 3.0 This is a mistake in my opinion. Even if 3.0 is delayed for some time, they need to be there for the Engine to be taken seriously.
AMD